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David Marker

York enthusiest from KC

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David Marker

Hi everyone. A fellow iron enthusiest friend of mine has been trying to convince me to sign up for this site for awhile now. I have to be honest I've been hesitant to sign up because of the 100 post policy to acces certain forums. I currently post all my York collecting stuff over at bb.com in the York thread. I have lots of general and specific questions about vintage York stuff and am interestd in non York stuff as well but try to limit my desire to branch out into other brands so I don't spend too much money or overflow my basment. Please feel free to start a conversation with me here to help me get my post numbers up so I can try to be a constructive memeber of the site. I'll start the conversation. Here are some ship wheel collars I believe are from the 30s. I haven't been able to find any other ship wheels like these. Does anyone have any additional info on ship wheel collars, the different types and when they were made?

46C1FC91-30AF-4FED-8441-5B75E4E74E32-21505-0000213550D0A460.jpg

8F1F92FE-A037-49F8-BEBB-82A7C81ABE27-21505-0000213558B268BA.jpg

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Michael Fallon

Hey David,

welcome and good luck getting to 100. Oh, and those are some nice shipwheels!!!!

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David Marker

Thanks Mike, I'm on here cause of you!! So did you find any info on what era these are from and where they fall in on the timeline of York collar production?

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Michael Fallon

Don't blame me. But you have come to the right place.

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David Marker

Hahaha it's all your fault!!!

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mike bondurant

David,

Welcome to IH! I'm sure you'll find some interesting and knowledgable people here.

Your collars were made in the thirties. Most of the ship wheel models were gone by the end of the war and the newer, stronger design were put into service in the late forties when production was resumed.

These are quite collectable and as I recall York and Jackson were the only ball-end collars made.

Mike B. O=O

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David Marker

Hi Mike B. Thanks for your response. In the image gallery I noticed a pair of Paramount ship wheel collars that are identical to the York ones that the leather pads and dual wing nuts.

I'm bummed that one of the nubs is missing on my ship wheel. Does anoyone have a pieced out shipe wheel they woud be willing to hook me up with a nub from? That way I could epoxy or weld it onto mine? :) Crazy question I know, lol.

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Paul Quinn

Hi David,

Welcome to the site. Thanks for posting those shipwheel pictures. Those are awsome. That is the frist time that that style of shipwheel with the one wing bolt has surfaced on this web site.

Yes Paramount did make shipwheel collars just like Yorks. I picked up a pair recently and will post pictures later today. I have to go take pictures of them.

As far as the York's shipwheel collars, I would think the ones you have date back farther than any seen so far on this web site. There were 2 other styles of York shipwheels. Black ones and larger ones that were some times found in red with large brass wing nuts. I did a post here not too long ago titled "York Shipwheel Compairsion". It compared the size of the collars and the weight between a red pair and a black pair. There was one other version of the York shipwheel collars that I came across where the only difference was the type of wing nuts.

Not to disagree with Mike B., but I have come across shipwheel collars that can be tracked back to being purchased from York in the early 1950's. I have also been told by others that say they were sold until the early 60's. Could have been old stock. Who knows. It's hard to say based on stories unless the story comes from someone who has first hand knowledge of the purchase.

Anyway, great find and again welcome to IH!

Paul

P.S. Don't worry about the 100 post rule. It was put there for a reason. If your serious about finding out about the old iron, you should have no problem reaching the 100 posts. Good luck.

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tim culver

welcome to IH dave, put those collars under glass !!! sweeeeeeet !!!

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David Marker

Thanks guys. I was really excited to find the shipwheels as I it had been on my list of York Items I wanted to collect. Here is a pic of the bar that they go with. Note that these collars have a very tigh tolerance and ONLY fit on this old bar. They do not fit on the 70s era York bar, nor do they fit on my 2012 Canadian York bar.

4A8183FF-8E35-4606-AAE6-8037E4F502B9-21505-00002135BD7213DC.jpg

8A1E5DAA-C3D8-40B7-93D8-F837DEE65F3D-21505-00002135B432987D.jpg

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BA60E7C8-E62A-4A51-ADAA-68AA8124F851-21505-0000213593F2E0B5.jpg

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Matt Levan

Hi David and welcome to the site. Those collars are really neat. I have done alot of research on early York olympic sets. Back in Feburary I was lucky enough to come across a 1930s olympic set. Most of my knowledge and answers have come out of the Strength and Health magazines, this site, and having a set to compare to. Introducing new finds is great and these collars are rare birds. We are still finding a new timeline when it comes to Early York Olympic plates. I believe your collars are late 40s or early 50s, probably post war. The larger round nubs is the first giveaway that they are from that era, the collars from the 30s and early 40s had flat long nubs. Also your bar does not have the solid end caps as the York bars from the 30s have, placing it later, but the center knurl is really great. York shipwheel collars were sold up until the 60s, they were the smaller black version that is more common. This information does'nt mean your collars are not from the 30s, they very well could be a prototype of some sort. The no leather and exact fit to the bar is very reminiscent of Jackson collars. I will post some pictures since you can't see Old Iron Depot yet. Trust me, posting 100 post in other sections is easy and worth doing to see the information and pictures in the Old Iron section. The 2 red sets of collars came from 1952. The ads show thin nubs from late 30s and early 40s and no nubs from 1933.

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post-5368-0-93020700-1350689807_thumb.jp

post-5368-0-57573100-1350689930_thumb.jp

Edited by Matt Levan

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David Marker

Matt, Thanks for your responce. The bar in the first and third old advert you posted looks similar to my bar with the center knurling and the sleeve design. The reason I say that my bar and sleeves are from the 30s is because that is what my source told me. He said he bought them first hand from original owner who had used the equipment after it had been passed to him from this father who I believe purchased it new. Thus I believe I am the third owner if you count the original father/son as a single owner. I can't verify this and it's possible my source has elements of the story wrong, but he said "30s" to me multiple times. Also he seemed to think that the original 45lb plates that came with the bar where the second generation deep dish plates (he no longer had the plates), not the older rare YORK ones seen in that first advertisment. So that confuses things I guess.

That's really all the information I can give. If I had to speculate based on the fact that the collars don't have leather I would think they were older - ie leather being a new development. In fact if you read the text of the fist advert, it touts the leather inserts as high tec development of the collar, making me think that the non leather would be older technology. But this is all speculation. Regardless the collars are really cool looking and the bar has a beautiful patina to it. I would like to remove the sleeves and clean them out with oil. Is there a thread that gives advice on how to go about this? They still turn but not real smoothly.

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David Marker

What is the best way to remove rust and restore these milled 5 and 10s?

C48D128E-DB77-48D0-8F48-493970F529E8-21505-000021357195FE22.jpg

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David Marker

That is the frist time that that style of shipwheel with the one wing bolt has surfaced on this web site.

So since I discovered a new species do I get to name it?!!

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Paul Quinn

David,

Sure give it a try... ;o)

Here are pictures of the Paramount Shipwheel collars. I have not had a chance to clean them up yet since I got them last week. They came from California via an IH member who got them for me.

They are a fine thread and taller than the York "black" version. Also the word Barbell is different than on the Yorks.

Also attached, since they were mentioned previously in this thread is a picture of my Jackson 1-A collars. Not quite as "balled" ends as Yorks, but still look a bit like the shipwheel design.

Paul

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post-4340-0-98088800-1350704013_thumb.jp

post-4340-0-17362000-1350704031_thumb.jp

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David Marker

Paul, Thanks for the photos. Cool stuff, and thanks for all your info and theories about the timelines of these things. Someone took all this information to their grave! Do you think the paramount collars were made in the York foundary? Or did they buy the York molds? Are they identical other than the names?

Also how do you plan on cleaning those up, ie removing the rust? I need to de-rust some plates and roundheads.

Those Jacksons are cool. Do they have leather pads?

Since you like collars, here are some other collars I have:

DAFC457D-498D-4D37-A621-F9A513E5474E-21505-000021356008DC8C.jpg

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David Marker

I know these star collars are nothing special but I love them and my cat likes them too :)

P1010571.jpg

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Michael Fallon

I think Flacco tipped him off....

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Butch Kliem

That is the frist time that that style of shipwheel with the one wing bolt has surfaced on this web site.

So since I discovered a new species do I get to name it?!!

I'll do it for ya dave, how about....Son of a b****, how in the hell did you find those fu***** awesome mutha f***** sweeeeeeeet a** collars !!! or we could simply call them RARE MARKER COLLARS. ;):)

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Paul Quinn

David,

The Paramount collars are different from the York collars. I don't think they were made in the same foundry as York, since they were a West Coast company. I got these collars with a pair of Paramount deep dish 45's. They are simalar to York's but only have 3 spokes.

To clean them up I will used hot water with soap, a brass wire brush, dry them off, and then a wire wheel on my drill.

Those Jackson collars did not come with leather in them. They were machined to a precison fit and therefore the leather was not needed. Also they weigh 7.5 lbs each verse the york 5 lbs.

The long collars in the picture you just posted were offered by York in 1947 and 48. I picked up a pair last week with a bar and the other collars from that period. They are cool. The Holdtights collars were made by York in, I believe, 39 through the end of the war, 46 ish. They got a patent on them I beleive in 41. Nice collars to have. I have 2 pairs of them. One pair is on my 1939 York one sided set and the other pair is for trade for the right Jackson item.

Paul

Edited by Paul Quinn

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David Marker

I inspected the collars further last night and pondered as to why their production was perhaps so short lived. My conclusion is that they were probably too difficult to mass produce due to their close toleranaces with the bar and the method in which they close. Since they don't have the leather pad and only have the wing nut on one side, the tolerance between the collar and the bar has to be slight enough that you can actually compress the base of the collar enough to squeeze onto the bar. There is only a very slight movement of the base that takes place to press the collar into the bar to clamp it. It looks as if the interior shaft of the base of the collar is actually bored out like that of the center hub of a weight plate - it is very smooth. There is a crecent cut away half way around the circumfrence of the the collar towards its base that allows for the collar to compress when you tighten the wing nut (you can kind of see this in the above photo fo the collar attached to the bar). While this is a very cool and interesting operating mechanism, it seems substantially more complex than the normal double wing nut/leather pad design. The completely moveable base the double wing nut and leather pads provide allow for much more movement of the collars base, ultimatly giving the collar much more forgiveness to open and close and fit on a wider spectrum of bar sleeves etc.

Thus even though on first glance the Marker shiph wheel collar "looks" like a conventional ship wheel with just only one wing nut, in reality it is based on a completely different clamping technology that is signficantly distinguishable from the common collar in its method of attachment. It closes more similarly to a hold tight collar than a standard ship wheel or star spin lock collar.

To rieterate, the percision to make this collar function properly is much higher than that of a dual wing nut design that allows for complete free movement of the base. I speculate that this collar was either a prototype or a very short lived production design that was quickly re-designed due to the difficulty in creating such a close tolerance device with minimal forgiveness. This is further illustrated by the fact that the collar's tolerance is too close to fit on a variety of bars, whereas the redesigned leather pad collars fit on a myriad of bars due to their inherent adjustability. To have the Marker ship wheel fit on a variety of bars would require the base to have more movement which is not possible with the single wing nut compression design w/o leather pads.

And that folks is the most in depth discussion of collar operating technology you will ever get from me!!! :)

Edited by David Marker

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Butch Kliem

I inspected the collars further last night and pondered as to why their production was perhaps so short lived. My conclusion is that they were probably too difficult to mass produce due to their close toleranaces with the bar and the method in which they close. Since they don't have the leather pad and only have the wing nut on one side, the tolerance between the collar and the bar has to be slight enough that you can actually compress the base of the collar enough to squeeze onto the bar. There is only a very slight movement of the base that takes place to press the collar into the bar to clamp it. It looks as if the interior shaft of the base of the collar is actually bored out like that of the center hub of a weight plate - it is very smooth. There is a crecent cut away half way around the circumfrence of the the collar towards its base that allows for the collar to compress when you tighten the wing nut (you can kind of see this in the above photo fo the collar attached to the bar). While this is a very cool and interesting operating mechanism, it seems substantially more complex than the normal double wing nut/leather pad design. The completely moveable base the double wing nut and leather pads provide allow for much more movement of the collars base, ultimatly enabling giving the collar much more forgiveness to open and close and fit on a wider spectrum of bar collars etc.

Thus even though on first glance the Marker shiph wheel collar "looks" like a conventional ship wheel with just only one wing nut, in reality it is based on a completely different clamping technology that is signficantly distinguishable from the common collar in its method of attachment. It closes more similarly to a hold tight collar than a standard ship wheel or star spin lock collar.

To rieterate, the percision to make this collar function properly is much higher than that of a dual wing nut design that allows for complete free movement of the base. I speculate that this collar was either a prototype or a very short lived production design that was quickly re-designed due to the difficulty in creating such a close tolerance device with minimal forgiveness. This is further illustrated by the fact that the collar's tolerance is too close to fit on a variety of bars, whereas the redesigned leather pad collars fit on a myriad of bars due to their inherent adjustability.

And that folks is the most in depth discussion of collar operating technology you will ever get from me!!! :)

David,

Very interesting and detailed. I enjoyed reading this.

However, my wife (I suspect most wives) would probably have stopped reading after the first sentence.

Kind of like this Volkswagen commercial.

Butch

Edited by Butch Kliem

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David Marker

Glad to know that there are some iron nerds out there who appreciate my scientific description and classification of bar collars :) hahaha

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David Marker

Today I picked up another major cache of vintage iron stuff. Rare old globe dumbbells, more collars, bur-bel plates, White USN Yorks bun w/ thick handles etc. My car was about 3 inches off the ground driving home. Getting the 135lb antique globe dumbbell into my basement was a work out in itself. Good thing they roll!

I'm going to wait till I get up to 100 post before I put up pictures of everything that way I can make sure it goes in the right forum for proper discussion. Hmm only like 85 more posts to go... Better go spam some threads ;)

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Steve Krebs

This thread should be moved to the Iron Depot and Exchange. David has some great items with historical significance that have not been seen before.

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